Should Apostates Be Executed?
I’ve been mulling over this issue recently, and though I’m no scholar, I would like to outline the arguments that traditionally Christians and Muslims have used for and against the execution of apostates in an attempt to clarify some of the arguments involved.
Historically, Muslims and the Christian Church have attempted to justified this punishment and I have noticed that their respective theological arguments are remarkably similar. So I’ll discuss this remarkable convergence of views and also show why I think Jesus (in the light of his reported teaching in Matthew 5:17-19; 15:3-7; 23:1-3) would have defended the capital punishment of Jewish apostates.
comments, as always, will be welcome.
I’ll post it here when I’m done…
UPDATE: I’ve had to commit time to other projects and so I can’t complete my research into this hot issue. So in lieu of this I’m posting a piece by Tim Winter that I broadly agree with. Its taken from Age of Jahiliyah
HOW DOES ISLAM DEFINE APOSTASY? IS IT PERMISSIBLE FOR A MUSLIM TO CONVERT TO ANOTHER FAITH? HOW CAN LAWS AGAINST APOSTASY AND BLASPHEMY BE RECONCILED WITH THE KORANIC INJUNCTION OF “NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION”?
Traditional human communities believe that truth leads to salvation, and error to damnation. It is probable that very many religious people in a variety of denominations still believe this. Historically, religiously-faithful princes have therefore seen it as necessary to use the coercive power of the state to forbid apostasy. One of the most powerful and persistent manifestations of this understanding in history was the Inquisition, which was definitively abolished in 1834. Protestant countries also respected this drastic principle; in fact, the first converts to Islam in Britain were impaled on stakes. In a Hindu context, ‘apostasy’ was often classified as violation of caste rules and boundaries, and similarly drastic consequences could follow. After the Mongol sack of Baghdad in 1253, Buddhists who converted to Islam were routinely put to death.
The four canonical schools of Sunni Islamic law, and also most pre-modern Shi’a jurists, recommend similarly drastic penalties, although the judge is enjoined to ‘look for ambiguities’ in order to avert the death penalty wherever possible.
The Ottoman Caliphate, the supreme representative of Sunni Islam, formally abolished this penalty in the aftermath of the so-called Tanzimat reforms launched in 1839. The Shaykh al-Islam, the supreme head of the religious courts and colleges, ratified this major shift in traditional legal doctrine. It was pointed out that there is no verse in the Qur’an that lays down a punishment for apostasy (although chapter 5 verse 54 and chapter 2 verse 217 predict a punishment in the next world). It was also pointed out that the ambiguities in the hadith (the sayings of the Prophet) suggest that apostasy is only an offense when combined with the crime of treason. These ambiguities led some medieval Muslims, long before the advent of modernisation, to reject the majority view. Prominent among them one may name al-Nakha’i (d.713), al-Thawri (d.772), al-Sarakhsi (d. 1090), al-Baji (d. 1081), and al-Sha’rani (d.1565). The debate triggered by the Ottoman reform was continued when al-Azhar University in Cairo, the supreme religious authority in the Arab world, delivered a formal fatwa (religious edict) in 1958, which confirmed the abolition of the classical law in this area.
Among radical Salafis and Wahhabis who do not accept the verdicts of the Ottoman or the Azhar scholars, it is generally believed that the majority medieval view should still be enforced.
The best discussion of the controversy is the book by Mohammed Hashim Kamali, “Freedom of Expression in Islam” (Cambridge, 1997).
© Paul Williams 2009
Hello:
This is the material I had promised.Well,the article “Bigotry,Christian Style” is no longer here.So I had to post here.Sorry about that.
I give it detailed,but condensed,so the Muslim readers can verify.It is related to the article link you directed me to read.I will add 2 more things also related:Emperor Julian and the Temple of Jerusalem/2 diffferent genealogies of Jesus.Then that’s it.Sorry again for the length,but the link you gave had alot of details.
ETERNAL COVENANT(Olam Brit,Berit)
In ISAIAH 42:6(a chapter considered Messianic by Jews,Christians,and Muslims think it refers to Mohammed and the covenant mentioned is the Koran)the Messiah will establish a BRIT(alliance,covenant)with the world:
JEREM 31:31-36 says God will establish a NEW COVENANT with the Jews DIFFERENt from that given to Moses at Mt.Sinai.For us it is the one given by Jesus
And God tells the Jews he will gather them from all over the world and establish with them an OLAN BRIT,it’s in the Future Sense(I will establish):
JEREM 32:36-41(verse 40,I will establish)
JEREM 50:2-10(verse 5)
EZEK 16:59-62(verse 60)
EZEK 37:21-28(verse 26)
For us it means one day the Jews will accept Jesus as Messiah and saviour.
EMBARASSING PARTS OF SYNOPTICS(and a bit of John)
1)Jesus’ family thought he was mad(MARK 3:21).
2)Religious leaders thought he was possesed by devil(MARK 3:22)
3)His family and relatives thought he was no prophet(MARK 6:4)
4)His brothers didn’t believe in him(JOHN 7:5)
He didn’t know the hour of the Second Coming:MARK 13:32/MATT 24:36
5)Cursed Fig Tree for no fruit even though it was time for figs(Mark,Matt)
6)PETER,one of 3 top Christian leaders(with JAMES and PAUL)denied Jesus 3X:MARK 14:30/MATT 26:34/LUKE 22:34/JOHN 13:38.
7)Disciples had trouble understanding the why of Jesus’ death and resurrection:MARK 9:8-13/LUKE 9:43-44.
8)Gentiles are called,literal phrase used:”little dogs/puppies”.(Mark,Matt)
9)Women went around with Jesus in his travels:LUKE 8:1-3.
10)Women found empty tomb.
11)JOHN-BAPTIST baptized Jesus(but why if Jesus was God and baptism is to cleanse yourself of sins?):MARK 1:9/MATT 3:13-15/but in LUKE 3:21,it only says Jesus was baptized,and John-Baptist is not mentioned.
12)The phrase “this generation” in Olivet Discourse:MARK 13:30/MATT 24:34/LUKE 21:32.
13)JOHN-BAPTIST doubted Jesus was the Messiah:MATT 11:1-6.
14)MARK 16:8 has womn “not tell anyone because they were afraid.”
JESUS AS GOD IN THE SYNOPTICS
1.”Son of Man is Lord of Sabbath”:MARK 2:28/LUKE 6:5/MATT12:8
2.”Son of Man forgives sins”:MARK 2:1-12/MATT 9:1-8/LUKE 5:17-26
3.”Do not fear,I AM”:MARK 6:50/MATT 14:22-27/JOHN 6:16-21(using EXOD 3:13-15)
4.Jesus applies PSALM 8:3(which is only about God)to himself in MATT 21:14-16.
5.Jesus orders,commands God (in original Greek)to forgive those who kill him:LUKE 23:33-34.Can you imagine Mohammed saying to Allah”I COMMAND you to defeat the Meccans”?
OCCAM’S RAZOR
It says when we have 2 equally good explanations for something,select the one that has the LEAST assumptions.
First,scholars eliminate the supernatural.No prophecies ever happen.So we have 2 options:
MARK is from 50 AD,LUKE-ACTS and MATT from 61 AD.(because ACTS ends before James’ death in 62 AD,and with Paul alive,and doesn’t mention death of Peter,Paul in 64 AD,nor destruction of Temple-Jerusalem in 70 AD.Good propaganda value.).LATER someone added:
1.Son of Man sayings of death-resurrection of Jesus
2.Prophecies of Temple-city.
3.Parts were Jesus says indirectly he is God.
BUT…
If the Synoptics didn’t have so much supposedly embarassing material it would be said AND if it did not involved THREE books but only ONE.But since they do it’s simpler to say MARK is from 70-75 AD,with interpolations.The same for LUKE-ACTS,MATT.Because to accept 50 AD would mean there was a conspiracy to add false material,to not just ONE,or TWO but THREE books at the same time.
The interpolations would be:1)Jesus says he is God.2)prediction of death-resurrection.3)destruction of temple-city prediction.4)miracles.
And that requires to many assumptions for which there is no evidence.
FOOD LAW,JESUS AND COUNCIL OF JERUSALEM
Mosaic Law is only for the Jews in Judaism.What law of God for us Gentiles?:
1.In the BOOK OF JUBILEES 7:20-28(2nd cent. BC) we have the first formulation in Judaism for what laws(alot less than 613)the Gentiles have to obey.
2.The TALMUD (500 AD)established the 7 NOAHIDE laws(named after NOAH),but the info is from way before 500 AD.They have nothing about not eating pork,killing animals a certain way,death for apostates,blasphemy,adultery.
3.The Council of Jerusalem in ACTS 15 merely decided the minimum laws,which were not engraved in stone.
4.In JUDAISM at the time of the Roman Empire the synagogues included GOD-FEARERS,Gentiles who believed in Yahweh but only followed some Mosaic laws.
EATING PORK
MATT 15:1 where Jesus says it is not what you eat that makes you unclean.He was saying the obvious.Pork in itself is not bad.In Judaism it is prohibited by God only as a form of discipleship.If you are starvng to death you can eat it.”The Sabbath was made for man,not man for the Sabbath.”
INTERPOLATIONS
Invented for propaganda:
1.Miracles of Jesus.
2.Jesus prophesizes his death and resurrection in 3 days:”Son of Man sayings”.
a.)1st time:MATT 16:21/MARK 8:31/LUKE 9:22.
b.)2nd time:MATT 17:22-23/MARK 9:31/LUKE 9:43-44.
c.)3rd time:MATT 20:17-19/MARK 10:32-34/LUKE 18:31-34.
3.He prophesizes the destruction of TEMPLE of Jerusalem:MARK 13:1-2/MATT 24:1-2/LUKE 21:56
4.Prophesizes destruction of Jerusalem:LUKE 13:33-35/LUKE 19:41-44/MATT 23:37-39.
JESUS AND MIRACLES
Many NT scholars believe their is a real basis for the miracles by Jesus in the gospels.NOT that he actually did miracles but that he was SO charismatic that he could cause a real recovery among sick people.The power of the mind,of positive thinking,of good feelings to effect phyiscal changes.Something documented by science.We have such examples:
RASPUTIN:he was a charlatan who posed as a holy man in Russia.He had an astonishing hynoptic power.It is very well documented by friend and foe.He had tremendous influence over the last Tsar,Nicholas II,because he could actually stopped the bleeding of the Tsarevich Alexis.He had hemophilia.Technically speaing,it is something that is impossible.
PLACEBO:fake medicine often used by doctors to help patients recover.Because they think it help,even though it is worthless,it often helps.
WITCHDOCTOR:documented cases of societies where the witchdoctor puts a curse on a healthy man.Then man is SO convinced that he will die,that the curse is effective,that he does die in 1 week.
NORMAN COUSINS(1915-1990):American writer famous for having helped himself out of a major illness using laughter and happy thoughts.Books:”Anatomy of an Illness” and “Human Options:an Autobiographical Notebook.”
SKIN CONDITION:a famous case where a boy with a very rare skin condition,where the skin was all wrinkled like a reptile’s,actually got alot better,when the doctor told the boy he would get better.The boy believed it so much most of the skin became normal.Power of suggestion.
SOME EXPLANATIONS
FIG TREE AFFAIR:it was not the time for figs in Palestine.But a few weeks before, the tree gives a substance called naqsa.It is eatable.Hungry peasents often eat it.THAT was what Jesus was looking to eat.BUT,but if it doesn’t appear it means the tree with give NO figs that year.Jesus took advantage of the fact to give a moral lesson.
JESUS BAPTIZED FOR SINS:He did NOT have to be baptized.He did it as an example to all of us.The xample of being humble.He said once:”The GREATEST among you will be the servant of you all.”The truly great man helps others.
GENTILES AND DOGS
The word used means little dogs/puppies.It seems he knew the woman was 100% determined.So he used the diminutive to show to her he was testing her,not because he was 100% determined from the beginning to say NO.She recognized this.
MESSIANIC SON OF MAN (in MATTHEW)
Just taking MATT in MATT 25:31-33,part of the Olivet Discourse, the Son of Man is Messianic(Son of Man “sits on his throne” ).He calls him “their KING” 2X (verse 34,verse 40)It is part of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats,where the Son of Man judges the nations.
MATT 20:28,where Jesus says HE is the Son of Man:”the Son of Man CAME(note:past tense,he already arrived)not to be served but to serve and give his life as a ransom.”(Remember MATT 3X has Son of Man will die,resurrect in 3 days).MATT 20:28 is alsoin MARK 10:45(and again MARK also 3X has Son of Man will die-rise on 3rd day.)
Again in the Olivert Discourse MATT 24:27(coming of the Son of Man will be sudden) and MATT 24:30 (Son of Man will come on clouds of heaven(Daniel 7).)
PAUL AND 1 THESS,1 COR 15:51:
I already told you it is believed the apocalyptic events in the Olivet Discourse were said by Jesus or that AT LEAST the early Christians believed it.Paul would have told them about it,to the Thessal. and Corinthian.
2 THESS is the most hotly debate letter of all those rejected by mainstream scholars.50% say it is by Paul,the other half no.2 THESS 2:1-12 says that before the second coming a evil man,the Antichrist,has to come.He is telling them NEW info he has received.Again in 1 COR 1:1 and 1 THESS it is hard to believe they didn’t know of the apocalyptic events that had to obligatorily happen BEFORE the secod coming.Paul had acess to info from the apostles.But here he gives new info,later given more details in Revelation by John.
JESUS AND MOSAIC LAW
Again,in MATT,in MATT 23:1-3 Jesus tells the people to obey the Pharisees in all they say.What did they say?To obey the Romans.In 6 AD,according to the Talmud,the Jewish leaders lost the right to apply capital punishment.Only in the case of a Gentile entering the Temple(an inscription was found).JOHN 18:31(from 90 AD)confirms this.
SO?
So it meant to ignore the death for this and that in Mosaic Law.Under the circumstances.So Jesus in MATT 5:17-20 was referring to an ideal situation,not Palestine then.After all,he had said to obey the Pharisees.
TRADITION OF FIDELITY TO ACTUAL WORDS
If the gospels were propaganda,why include embarassing material that is counter-productive?There was no conspiracy to “make Jesus God by interpolations”.MARK is in bad Greek,yet they never corrected it.REVELATION is in bad Greek also,no correction.That almost wraps it up,I will just later add extra info about the 2 genealogies of Jesus,and my participation is over.
SALVATION BY JESUS
For a while let us concentrate only on MATT.I have already shown that in that one book we have:Jesus saying he’s God/Messianic Son of Man sayings/supposedly embarassing parts,prophecies of death-resurrection,destruction of Temple-city.
You pointed to the rich young man incident in MATT that Jesus’ idea of salvation was different from Paul’s.Again,that was before the New Covenant,a conversation between 2 Jews,so Jesus naturally said that.But in MATT again Jesus tells us that BASICALLY it is based on FAITH in God.
PARABLE OF WORKERS,MATT 20:1-16:
He said the Kingdom of God was like people going to work.Some began at 6 am,then 9 am,noon,3 pm and 5 pm.At 6 pm ALL get paid a full-days wage,1 denarius.Some complain,who have been working all day,why should those who worked only 1 hr get the same?
In GEN 15:1-6 Abraham is justified by faith in God(verse 6).ACTS 15:11 Peter says its by the favor of Jesus that we are saved.JAMES knew about it,he quotes GEN 15:6(JAMES 3:23:”Thus was fulfilled what Scripture says:”Abraham believed in God and it was imputed to him as justice”,and he was called the friend of God.”)
Hello:
Here is the documentary evidence that I told you about that show they Jews of 1st century Palestine believed the Messiah would come then.
DANIEL 9:24-27 PROPHECY
It is one that can be interpreted in a way that it is about the TIME PERIOD for when the Messiah Jesus would come.The scholars say that the Jews of the 1st century in Palestine were expecting the Messiah to come THEN?Why?It can only be that they saw Daniel 9:24-27 as being about him.Here is the documentary proof:
DOCUMENTS
ESSENES and their writings in Qmran, it shows they beleived the Messiah would come in their time period.They existed from 250 BC to 70 AD,numbered 4,000 and were 100% against slavery.
JAMES TABOR,a skeptical NT scholar,in THE JESUS DYNASTY(2007),says the Essenes in their writings show they thought Daniel 9:24-27 was about the Messiah.Since he knows more about them,I’ll take his word for it.
FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS ( 37-100 AD ), the famous Jewish historian, in his JEWSIH WARS, which told of the Jewish revolt of 66-70 AD says in Book VI, 5.4, about:” an ambiguous ORACLE that was also found in their ANCIENT WRITINGS,how about THAT time, one from THEIR COUNTRY should become GOVERNOR of the habitable earth.” (He can only be referring to the DANIEL 9:24-27 prophecy).
TACITUS ( 50-117 AD ), greatest of the Roman historians, wrote in his HISTORY ( note: of the Roman empire), Book V, 13:” the MAJORITY were deeply impressed with the persuasion that it was contained in the ANCIENT WRITINGS of the priests that it would come to pass that at the very time, that the EAST would renew its strength and they that should go forth from JUDEA should be RULERS of the world. ”
SUETONIUS ( 75-150 AD ), another famous Roman historian, in his LIVES of the CEASERS ( chapter on the Life of Vespasian ) says:” a FIRM PERSUASION had long prevailed through all the EAST that it was fated for the empire of the world at THAT TIME to devolve on SOMEONE who should go forth from JUDEA. “
Scholars in general say MARK,the earliest gospel can NOT be earlier than 70 AD because there Jesus prophesizes the destruction of the Temple.It is an INTERPOLATION.But the case of Emperor Julian may show he did say it.He was trying to prove Jesus a false prophet by rebuilding the Temple
THE CASE OF EMPEROR JULIAN (ruled 361-363 AD)
He was raised as a Christian but sood abandoned it,maybe he never really believed.He wrote a book against Christianity called “Against the Galileans”,which was destroyed by the Church.He knew of Jesus’ prophesy and when he became Emperor he decided to rebuild the Temple of Jerusalem for the Jews to prove that Jesus was a false prophet.But in spite of having alot of Imperial support the project failed because balls of fire appeared while working and other things that prevented it.Coincidence or not?Whatever the reason,he could not rebuild the Temple.This incident is told by a pagan historian called Ammianus,and by Christian and Arian hisorians of the same and next generation.You can easily find alot of info about this incident on the internet by writing “Julian and the temple of Jerusalem” and “Ammianus”,like in:
http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/j/julian-the-apostate.html
ABOUT AMMIANUS
He was a great historian,the last of the Roman Empire,a Greek who wrote in Latin and he was a great admirer of Julian,who had many fine qualities really.He lived at the same time as him,was a contemporary and he wrote a history of the Roman Empire,most of which has been lost:
http://orion.it.luc.edu/~avande1/jerusalem/sources/ammianus.htm
So if Jesus had never told such a prophecy,then what could have caused the incident of 362 to prevent Jesus being discredited?.I add also:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1184766044619&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Again,the intention of Julian was to humiliate Jesus as a prophet.
To end:
Again,sorry for the length,but no more words than this.Muslims consider the 2 different genealogies of Jesus as IRRECONCILABLE.First,the fact the church always had them shows Fidelity of Transmission of original words,No conspiracy.Here is a good explanation of the subject.I won’t ever comment So Much again.Only this time.
We have 2 genealogies of Jesus. In Matthew we have, without the slightest doubt, the genealogy of JOSEPH but in Luke we have that of MARY.
THE GENEALOGY IN MATTHEW: MATTHEW 1: 1-17:
First notice that in Matthew we have the ROYAL lineage: it goes from the past to the future, from ABRAHAM through DAVID to JESUS, while Luke does NOT have the royal lineage after David, going from the present to the past, from JESUS to Adam. David was the second king of the Jews and was succeeded by Solomon, in Matt the genealogy goes like this: DAVID, SOLOMON, Rehoboam….Jechoniah ( last king of Judah ).
THE GENEALOGY IN LUKE: LUKE 3:22-28:
In Luke we have Jesus….NATHAN, then DAVID, his father. Nathan was NEVER king , but he was the son of David. So we have 2 different genealogies obviously, one is the official, legal one, based on the father ( Matt’s genealogy for Joseph ).
THE GENEALOGY IN MATTHEW AGAIN
First thing first: Matthew undeniably says Jesus was descended from MARY, he says it in an INDIRECT but clear way:
Matt 1:1:
” A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham ”
Notice it calls Jesus the SON of DAVID and the SON of ABRAHAM. Now a man cannot have 2 fathers. Here we have a Semitism. The word son in the OT means a real son but it also means DESCENDANT, so Matt is saying Jesus descended from King David and Abraham. In fact ask any rabbi and he will tell you they call the Messiah MASHIACH BEN DAVID.
MATTHEW TELLS US THE GENEALOGY IS THAT OF JOSEPH
Matt 1:16:
” and Jacob begot Joseph, the husband of Mary, of who was born Jesus, who is called Christ. ”
He tells us Jacob had a father, or maybe ancestor called Jacob. He tells us Joseph was the husband of Mary. Then he shifts the emphasis to ” of who ( note: of who? of Mary ) was born Jesus, who is called Messiah. ” Matt is careful NOT to say: ” and Joseph begot Jesus. ”
Matthew uses the Greek word that literally means begot, but when you analyze his genealogy you see he skips several generations in places and here begot is an expression for ancestor or father, depending on the case. That is why many translations have it as ” was the father of ” instead of begot ,where father can also mean ancestor.
MATTHEW TELLS US OF THE VIRGIN BIRTH
Matt 1:18-21:” This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.
But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, ” Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins. ” ”
JOSEPH WAS NOT THE FATHER BUT THE MESSIAH WOULD HAVE TO OBLIGATORILY DESCEND FROM DAVID
According to the prophecies the Messiah would have to descend from David, but since Joseph is not the real father, even though descended from David, and Matt says explicitely that Jesus really was a DESCENDANT of David, then by logic it would have to be through the mother. The mother would be a desecendant of David.
SO WHY HAVE JOSEPH’S GENEALOGY AT ALL?
The reason is that in Antiquity, and probably today also, when you give one’s genealogy it is always on the FATHER’S side. It was not the custom to give the genealogy on the mother’s side. So Matt gives us the OFFICIAL genealogy of Jesus, official but not the real one, since Joseph was the husband of Mary and he was the LEGAL father of Jesus, his adopted father, so to speak.
THE GENEALOGY IN LUKE AGAIN
First of all Luke tells us DIRECTLY that Mary descended from David in Luke 1:26-33 and also notice that it says a VIRGIN will give birth, so no father is involved. But then it has the phrase ” of his father David “. Here again we have a Semitism. In the OT father means a real father but it also means ANCESTOR. Since Joseph had nothing to do with the birth of Jesus and since the prophecies say that the Messiah would be a descendant of David, then it was obligatory. So here the problem is solved because Mary was also a descendant of David.
THE TEXT IN LUKE ABOUT THE VIRGIN BIRTH:
LUKE 1:26-33: ” In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, ” Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you. ”
Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, ” Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus.
He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the THRONE of his FATHER DAVID, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end. ”
THE LUKE GENEALOGY:
It is in Luke 3:22-28 and many say it is the GENEALOGY of JOSEPH, not of JESUS, because it begins with:
” Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli, the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, the son of Melki,the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, etc.”
HERE IS THE PROOF THE GENEALOGY IS THAT OF JOSEPH, NOT JESUS’:
There we have the proof, it says Joseph was the son of Heli, who was the son of X, etc. But when you read the LITERAL translation it is:
” And Jesus himself was beginning to be about thirty years of age, being, as was SUPPOSED, SON OF Joseph, OF HELI, OF Matthat, OF Levi, etc.”JAMES TABOR in his book highlights that is how it is in the original Greek.
Just check out Young’s Literal Translation in biblegateway.com where the word ” son ” is in parenthesis.
WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY?
That the EMPHASIS is on JESUS, not Joseph, so it can also be written as ( by taking out ” as was supposed, son of Joseph ” ):
” And JEUS himself was beginning to be about thirty years of age, being, OF ELI, of Matthat, of Levi, etc.”
I STILL DON’T UNDERSTAND:
Since the EMPHASIS is on Jesus, and Joseph is just put in as ” the supposed father ” then the phrase ” Jesus was OF HELI, of Matthat, of Levi, etc. ” would mean he was descended literally from Heli, etc. Since Jesus had as his mother Mary, and since Jesus did not have a Heli as a father, in fact, no father at all, then Heli would be Mary’s father.
Jesus,of Heli,a descendant of Heli,through his mother Mary,who was his daughter.
THAT IS ONLY A CHRISTIAN ARGUMENT
Then read JAMES TABOR, a respected NT scholar who is no Christian at all, who wrote THE JESUS FAMILY DYNASTY, chapter 2 ” A son of David? “, pages 48-57. He believes Jesus was an illegitimate child, no virgin birth, no resurrection, that Jesus was not God and that his tomb is somewhere in Galilee. He also argues that Luke has Mary’s genealogy. Again, because in Luke the emphasis is on JESUS, not on Joseph.And he argues based on the actaul Greek used.
THE CURSE ON JECHONIAH
In Jeremiah 22:30 the last king of Judah, Jechoniah is cursed for being evil and told NONE of his descendants will ever be KING of the Jews.
” This is what the LORD says:
“Record this man as if childless,
a man who will not prosper in his lifetime,
for none of his offspring will prosper,
none will sit on the throne of David
or rule anymore in Judah. ”
In the Talmud ( Babylonian Talmud Sanhedrin 37b ) it is said that later Jechoniah repented and was forgiven by God, and the curse revoked, but that is NOT in the OT,as far as I know. So the Jewish and Christian writers knew that the Messiah had to be from David but not through Jechoniah. If Jesus was really the biological son of Joseph then he would have been disqualified as the Messiah since Jsoeph was descended from Jechoniah.
THE PROTOEVANGELIUM OF JAMES
Written in 150 AD it may contain some reliable information. There the parents of Mary are said to be JOACHIM and ANNA. JOACHIM is a form of ELIAKIM, like YEHOSHUAH is a form of JOSHUA, JECHONIAH of CONIAH, Mike of Michael ,Tommy of Thomas, Rick of Richard. It is possible HELI is a short form for Eliakim, so argues James Tabor.
Hi minoria
once again you post a huge amount of material for me to read and reply to. Because of this I really don’t have the time to go through each point. May I suggest you concentrate on just ONE issue and then we can work through that?
Paul
Hello Paul:
I know you are right.Next time it will be short.The info was just to serve as background and point of reference.I am curious to read your ideas on death for apostates in Christianity and Islam.I guess it will be ready in 2-4 weeks.Till then.And good luck.
I read a book published in 1710 by John Toland. When combined with other evidence I’d gathered, I was convinced that the geneaology of Jesus was added. Possibly during Tatiain’s reign. Toland claimed to have found an ancient Bible written in Irish characters. In that Bible, Matthew, began, ‘And this child was on this mother. . .’ He theorized, that being on the edge of the Roman empire, saved this book from the editors.
Why add a false geneaology?
I believe it was to combat a rumor gaining support. In Josephus autobiography he tells of a Jesus who led mariners and (the) poor, Galileans. They were seditious, demanding the gold from the temple. His geneaology is listed, as was custom for Josephus, it reads, Jesus son of Sapphias. If this was our Jesus, then he survived the crucifixtion because Josephus wrote decades after the event. He even mentions a triple crucifixtion with a survival.
Could there really be a second Jesus, leading Ebionites, fishermen, and Galileans? Assaulting the temple over gold (money changers). I think not, that is why a new idenity was created. The virgin birth was a combination of bad translations and editors being influenced by Pagan myths.
The Jews expected a messiah and wrote about it, but, if the Christians want to use prophecy as evidence for Jesus, then Jesus was not divine. The messiah would be a returning prophet, a man, and Jesus being god reaked of doecitsm.
Finally, nearly everything said of Jesus had orginated before, nothing original. The trinity was borrowed from the Pagans as was the celebration, now called the euchurist. But why… Jerusalem was a crossroads of goods and Rome wanted its taxes. The Jewish religion, with its one God, made occupation by a Pagan power a struggle. First they tried force, then they sent Saul to convert the Jews, finally Saul returned as Paul, supposedly joining James and the Jerusalem Temple. But, when out of their sight he abandoned the law and preached a new way, a New Testament.
Hey Paul. I wonder when are you planing to finish this article about apostates. I am very keen to read it that I check it every couple of days. I hope your progress is going well regarding this article.
I also wonder if there are any plans for debates with acts 17 apologetics or other christian apologetics.
Thanks, and keep up the good work.
I’ve been occupied with other matters at the moment so unfortunately my post will not be finished for a while yet. As to other debates in the pipeline its best to look at the MDI website for upcoming debates…
[...] his 14th August post under the astonishing question ‘Should Apostates Be Executed?’ (here) Williams writes, “I’ve been mulling over this issue recently, and although I’m [...]